Love, Marriage, Courtship part 1
Posted by jahothanan on November 27, 2007
For many young people, love, romantic relationships, marriage, and forms of courtship are constantly on their minds. For some, they use these things to honor God and their families. For others, they use these things to fall into sin and/or cause a lot of emotional trouble for themselves. In our post-modern society, it is much easier to fall into the latter category. When I mention “sin and/or cause a lot of emotional trouble,” I don’t just mean sexual deviancy through pornography, premarital sex, etc. I also mean the reverse side of this where so many people have avoided romantic relationships so much in their attempt to keep their purity that they create an emotional void in themselves that is hard to repair. Not to mention, I believe this is unbiblical since God created mankind for such relationships for various reasons as we will later see the more we study this topic.
First off, let me clarify that I am whole heartedly for keeping one’s purity for marriage. However, I also think that the lengths some people go to in order to keep their purity are sometimes unnecessary and often times unhealthy. Let me tell you of a video I watched in my sociology class to help illustrate what I am talking about and some of the dynamics that we are dealing with.
The video was specifically studying the modern, and very homeschooler way of courtship. It followed a couple during their courtship and the process by which they courted. Both people were young. He was 19 and she was 20. Before the courtship started, he went to her father and asked him if he could court his daughter. After the girls father asked the boy all the questions he desired to ask, he gave his permission. Only after these things took place did the girl even find out about the whole deal. She was given the option of veto power, but she liked the boy and agreed to the courtship. The parameters for the courtship were as follows:
- They could not touch, even each other’s hand. The closest they could get to each other was to hold either end of the Bible during church and family devotions.
- They could only visit on weekends and were allowed only one phone call per week.
- When they went places, they had to be supervised by their parents and could never be left alone together.
- Every week, they would write letters to each other and then read their letters to the other person.
So you get the point. It was a very restrictive courtship, but for them it seemed to work very well. At their wedding, they touched for the first time and never let go of each other through the entire reception. After one year of marriage, they had a three month old baby.
After the film, the class had the opportunity to discuss it. A couple of the questions we were supposed to ask ourselves were “could I do a courtship like this?” and “is this couple likely to stay together or get divorced?” For a lot of the place, the sentiment was “well, it was okay for them, but I would do it differently.” Others (mostly the Christians) said “I hope that I could do what they did, even if I wouldn’t be as extreme as they were.” And the last group of people were very upset that the couple even courted the way they did, claiming that the couple could never be happy under such circumstances. All that being said, everyone, even the last group, had to admit that it was very unlikely that the couple would ever get a divorce.
One more thing that I want to point out is that this couple did take courtship to an extreme and it worked for them. They are a rare few because there are many more that would like to hold to that standard, but as a result, they don’t get married. Instead, many well meaning people hurt themselves emotionally. For some people, certain things will work and for others, something else needs to be done. Love is not universal in that one size fits all. The couple in the video accomplished their goal and kept their purity for marriage. My question to you is does the Bible show us possible ways to keep our purity for marriage during a courtship process other than how this couple did it? If so, what sorts of ways?
Grace said
I find that very interesting, I know a group of
people who are so worried about purity, the girls
and boys don’t even sit next to each other. Some of
them are getting older now and they aren’t getting
married because of that fear.
Jesta said
I’m only thinking on a single level here because it’s early and I don’t have my Bible
but we are told in the Song of Solomon not to “stir up love until it pleases.” I honestly think that this is different for every person and couple. Sometimes something that “stirs up love” for one couple would be meaningless for another. I think that every person and every couple needs to examine their own situation and decide–together–on what is appropriate and what isn’t. Like you said, love and romance are not one size fits all. There are definitely lines when it comes to romance…for some, it might be beyond holding hands. For others, it might be hugging. Obviously sexual deviancy is fifty or so feet BEYOND the bright RED line, but the point is that every couple needs to set boundaries so that they do not come near that line at all. I hope that made sense.
Father Cory said
I’ve looked a fair amount in the Bible for a how-to on relationships, and when I find no step by step instructions, I was disappointed…but Song of Solomon was overlooked until watching a series on Song of Solomon by Tommy Nelson and listening to two sermons by Brad Bell, an amazing pastor whose hand I wish I could shake. It’s still remarkably vague and dated…language and culture have changed drastically throughout the years, but similar to the Pirate’s Creed, it serves as a good guideline.
Realistically, there are few absolutes in regards to dating and courtship that can be found in the Bible. Obviously “keeping the marriage bed pure” and abstaining from “sexual immorality”, as sex is an issue of great importance to the Lord and marriage even more so. But then there are issues that go far beyond just sexual purity, such as the emotional and spiritual side of relationships. One can enter into a relationship and never ever touch the other, but can come out of it so emotionally broken and destroyed…I’ve seen it happen over and over. Purity doesn’t stop at the physical.
SoS 2:7 and 3:5, the verses that beg, “Do not arouse or awaken love until it pleases”, are still slightly ambiguous and can raise several questions…does it mean, “Don’t date,” does it mean, “Don’t have relationships with people of the opposite sex,” does it mean, “Don’t have sex,”…and so on. Identifiably, I see this verse as more of a caution not to single people…I see it as a caution to someone or someones who are either in a friendship or relationship, not to go too far or too in-depth until that time comes.
You do well to say that there’s no one size fits all, certainly all forms of love deviate from the Greatest Love, but it never comes to all of us in the same way. Certainly there are good aspects to courtship, and I applaud many of the oldschool ways of doing things, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with dating, either. Courtship can be as hurtful and emotional and sometimes even as physically sinful as some dating instances…it’s all in how the individual handles it.
Aye, we must guard our hearts, but inevitably we’re going to be attracted to someone. It’s how we’re designed. All of those hardcore, “Never going to date, won’t look at a women until I get married”…that’s a terrible road to go down. Now, there’s a difference between keeping oneself single for the purpose of pleasing God and staying single because one thinks dating and/or relationships is going to lead to evil or sin or hurt or whatever. I’ve known very very very few guys who have succeeded in not “liking” girls, VERY few. It’s how we’re wired! A buddy of mine (actually quite a few of my buddies) has a track record of going perhaps a week, rarely two, before liking a new girl. That one will go a while, then he’ll stop liking her for some reason…then another girl will come along that he’ll like. It’s just how we work.
So inevitably it’s going to come up and our hearts start to experience the voltage, that bubbling chemistry none of us can explain. That’s why boundaries must be set, our relationships with Christ must be set, etched in stone, as it were. Because if we’re aiming to please God as much as we can, the question changes from, “How far is too far?” to “How godly can I treat this person?”…without people thinking I’m some sort of monk, heh. If a couple is striving towards godliness and they have those things set, I don’t think it matters if they go through courtship or if they date, God will honor that if they honor Him with their relationship. Some couples kiss, some hold hands, some won’t touch the other person. It’s different for everybody, like you said. It fully depends on that person’s emotional and spiritual stability.
I liked what you said in your comment, “I think that every person and every couple needs to examine their own situation and decide–together–on what is appropriate and what isn’t.” This is an excellent demonstration of how important communication is in relationships. ’cause if the girl’s okay with kissing, but the guy knows he’s probably going to have a problem if he kisses her, and they don’t talk about it? That’s going to end up being remarkably awkward or devastating in the end. Communication is key.
I believe God works in relationships more than we give Him credit for, and as long as we have our sights set on Him and who He’s made us to be individually, He will honor that. Ha! He’s a genius! As I was writing this, I came to an epiphany as to why He never mapped it all out, step by step: Because He wants us to experience the beauty of it in our own unique way! It’s such a beautiful thing, such a precious thing, He wants to make it the best for us as it can possibly be.
Good times. Brilliant.
Father Cory said
Holy wows…I didn’t realize how much I wrote XD
jahothanan said
“…without people thinking I’m some sort of monk,” and with a name like Father Cory, that isn’t so unlikely.
I will answer you guys more thoroughly later, but now is difficult because I am under the weather and have a final exam to take.
Father Cory said
““…without people thinking I’m some sort of monk,” and with a name like Father Cory, that isn’t so unlikely.”
Jesta said
He IS a monk!
Evil Mr. Glitch said
A chipmonk that is. LOL
The one group of people NOT included in this discussion has been the couple’s parents. The main difference I see is the involvement of the parents in the relationship and certain boundaries they set. Most parents want the best for their children, so this is one part of relationships that I believe should not be neglected. Just my two cents.
Jaho, you haven’t updated your blog in a while.
jahothanan said
Jesta: I believe I do know what you are talking about. The “boundries,” as you label them, for the Christian really ought to come from Scripture. (This is something I want to talk about more in later posts.) Granted Scripture does not always give a clearcut answer to all our questions, but it does give us plenty of principles to go off of. It also tells us when we have gone too far.
Cory: First off, Song of Solomon as part of Scripture is not specifically about romantic relationships if you follow the teachings of most of the old reformers. They say it is talking about the church’s relationship with God in the respect that the church is married to him. Now my sister said something (best to give credit where credit is due) that is very insightful on the whole thing. She said that as Christians, our relationships with each other ought to reflect our relationship with God. This being the case, our marriage to Christ ought to be reflected in our marriage to another person. I really like this approach to the Song of Solomon because it puts the focus back on Christ and makes him the center of our Christian walk in this life.
Okay, so that was a lot to say on the Song of Solomon and I will say more when I post in depth about love marriage and courtship as seen in Scripture.
About courtship verses dating, I think that Evil Mr. Glitch really points out an important part of this and that is parental involvement. The problems with dating in the past have been linked to the fact that the couple would leave, go somewhere by themselves and then have no moral guidance to protect them from immorality. My biggest point in this post is that people cannot approach the subject as, I fear, some people like Josh Harris did and try to say there is one way to do things in a relationship. I think that this approach can be very harmful to many people if they think that it is the only way to prevent sin and have a Godly relationship. It may work for some people, but I would never say it works for all people.
As for kissing, I’ll leave that for another post.
The whole thing can be very beautiful, Cory, but the whole thing can also be disgusting and ugly. In our world today, we must be on our guard because it is far too easy to fall into sin. That is where most of our world is, including, I might add, many Christians and that is very sad.
Father Cory said
Forgive me, but I believe you’re completely wrong about the Song of Solomon not being about relationships. Certainly one might find good comparisons, but I don’t believe it was written, or included in the canon, to be about the church solely. At the time, there wasn’t any clear representation between the “church” and God, in being the bride and such…that didn’t really come into the clear until Jesus spoke of it. And it’s not like it’s a letter written in symbolism. I’m sure Solomon wasn’t like, “I’ll fall in love with this woman and speak poetry to her and romance her so that people will understand what it’s like to be married to Jesus.” It’s two people communicating back and forth and falling in love. That’s what the original context is. Like I said before, symbolism and similarities can be extracted, but I don’t believe that is the true meaning of the book.
And your sister speaks well; love originates from the original love of God, so it stands to reason why it is manifested in our love and relationships with each other.
Also, in regards to Josh Harris, whom I think is brilliant, I have read several of his books that concern dating, courtship, and relationships (I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Boy Meets Girl), and not once do I recall him ever saying that there was only one way to do relationships. How naive that would be! Over and over he clarifies himself and makes it clear that there is no one absolute way…but there are guidelines as outlined in the Bible and also other suggestions and guidelines he has researched and studied to provide to us. Find me the quote in any of his books that says there’s only one way, because I’ve read those books backward and forward many times, and I never remember reading that.
…and trust me, I’ve seen plenty of the “disgusting and ugly” in regards to relationships, more than you might think. Being in youth ministry lends itself to certain insights and observations.
Jahothanan said
My goodness. Touchy.
I think you really missed what I said concerning Song of Solomon. Solomon himself is not someone whose example you should follow very much, especially concerning relationships. From very early, Song of Solomon was seen in the way I described it. Modern scholars will tell you that; though, what a lot of moderns will also say is that its primary purpose in Scripture is no longer about the church and God, but about love relationships between people (its true meaning which we just recently discovered). This I think is very wrong because our relationships with each other ought to follow our relationship with God. If Song of Solomon excludes God in his proper role than it should not be in Scripture. I recommend reading some reformers on this. Song of Solomon can be consulted for relationships, just not as directly as many modern people will tell you.
“One way” was the wrong way of expressing what I was trying to say. However, I have not really met anyone who says that there is absolutely “one way” to approach relationships. There are those who would say that courtship is the only way or the like, but they haven’t given a definite explanation on that. This kind of thinking has caused a lot of problems and I have seen it too much among home schoolers. They disconnect themselves from the real world and hence cannot survive in it. This has been a problem with home schooling in general, but I find it particularly blatant in the realm of relationships. Josh Harris’ teaching has influenced this greatly and I have not seen it bear much good fruit. Maybe you have seen it bear better.
Now stating my problem with Josh Harris. Josh Harris breaks his own rules in his personal relationships. Also, I heard his dad speak and he is a strong advocate for structuring one’s life in a specific way. Such a way that it is no longer Biblical. Josh Harris does very similar things. I heard him speak on Dr. Dobson’s show once and Dobson brought to light a lot of inconsistencies in Josh Harris. When asked about his first books he said that he no longer holds to them, but he will not change them because he likes to look back at what he was like then. That is a little strange to me since people will be reading them for a long time.
I am sorry about this if you really like Josh Harris, but I think there are other people who give better advice on relationships. Ravi Zacharias is one, even though relationships are not his expertise, but then again, there is nothing particular that qualifies Josh Harris either. Josh Harris says some good things. Don’t get me wrong. I just think that he really misses it sometimes. He is not a role model that I would ever recommend.
That being said, I’m sorry if it is offensive. I wouldn’t suggest throwing out Josh Harris, but I would say that you should also consult people who are solid in doctrine and theology elsewhere and see how they tie it into relationships.
The more I think about it the more I am convinced that many of our problems stem from the general Christian populace’s lack of understanding concerning sound doctrine and theology as a whole.
Father Cory said
Eh, not touchy. Just working it ^_^
There are far too many interpretations and commentaries and researchings done on (not just) Song of Songs: some say Solomon wrote it, some say someone else wrote it for Solomon, some say Solomon wrote it about God, some say it was a woman writing mere poetry or thoughts…heck, I did an internet search about five seconds ago and there’s TONS of different thoughts. There’s no real point to this except to say that perhaps it covers many (if not all) of those areas, because it’s not a black and white “this is how it is” book. That is to say, to be interpreted into one’s own life how that person feels God is trying to speak to him or her. For me, I have heard sermons, read books, watched video tapes…and like every other Biblical subject I hear preached about, I’m going to pray and do my own study to see how it applies to myself. Like you pointed out earlier on, there’s no one set way for love…perhaps it’s the same thing with Song of Songs, to be translated out of the gray into our own personal lives. For you, it gives you clearer meaning about relationships in how you understand it. For me, it has given me better methods of trying to understand how God wants me to act and function in my relationships. Whether it’s about the church or directly about relationships, it’s going to effect each person in a different way as we interpret it personally and as we are individually convicted or moved.
I don’t hail Josh Harris as the one and only reference for relationships, by no means. I believe his journey to be a fascinating one that I can myself learn from, because I can relate a lot to him and how he thinks. That is quite possibly why we differ in our views of him, because I’m not sure if you relate to him in the same way I do…same with us and Ravi. Love the guy, love his speaking, but I don’t feel that same connection with him. With Josh Harris, Brad Bell, Jeff Feldhahn, I can connect, which is also why I read more than one author’s opinion on any given subject, or listen to other sermons. God speaks to us all in different ways and shows us where He wants us to go, uniquely. Certainly I’m not going to take everything Harris says as gospel truth or the absolutely right way to do things, but he has helped me structure my own life in ways I know are right for me…that may not be right for you or anyone else.
You may be right, there are many problems that cause many Christians to fall. In a lot of ways Christians try to spiritually redefine terms and methods and ways to make themselves feel better, when it all ends in the same results. But don’t forget those who have never studied the deep theologies, never fully understood all the intense Biblical stuff, but knew what they needed to know, did it in a godly way, and are living happily under God’s blessing. You don’t have to know everything. Just enough to let God guide the way.
jahothanan said
I’m glad you understand what I was trying to say about the Song of Solomon.
When I spoke of the problems I have seen with Josh Harris, I was speaking of what I have seen others do with it for the most part. If you can use him in the ministry you are in, then good. I’m glad you see the value of others as well, though.
Speaking of relating to someone, I fear that is a stumbling block for many people. Those who have something important to say are often not very appealing. This is especially a problem with youth. We have grown up in a society that glorifies entertainment and it has really caused most of us to ignore what we find to be boring, whether or not it is good for us, and seek something with a little more fun or connection to ourselves.
This is something I hope to break to a certain extent and maybe you can have some meaningful impact in that way as well, considering the ministry you are in.
Hey, thanks for all the comments, this has been a good discussion.
Father Cory said
Good call.
All I’m saying is that sometimes I can connect and learn a little bit more about myself when I can see part of myself through somebody else’s experience. Also, I’m not the deepest of people; I need honest simplicity a lot of the time, and sometimes it’s easier for God to speak to me through the simple authors rather than guys like say C.S. Lewis, who is BRILLIANT and amazing, but it can be tough for me to sit down and read through his stuff. For instance, I can read through The Screwtape Letters better and easier than I can read through Mere Christianity, because there’s that whole story and fiction side to it, instead of pure theology and logic and stuff being thrown at my face.
That being said, by no means is that tough stuff unimportant or unnecessary. It should be read, and should be encouraged to be read. But gold can be found within even the simplest of rivers.
Relationships, dating, courtship, love…this is a discussion and topic I thrive upon (just ask any of my friends down here ^_^) I eagerly await more